Change of Computer Club Lead

1. Reason for investigation

Tony Whitlesay approached me seeking clarification of who has authority to issue instructions to members of the Chapel Computer Club during its meetings.

The question arose after Geoff Thomas reminded Martin Vale to clean the kitchen at the conclusion of a meeting. Tony considered that this instruction should have been issued through him as Club Lead.

I asked Geoff to provide a statement explaining what had occurred. He supplied a transcript prepared from audio recorded by the Chapel’s CCTV system.

2. Scope and evidence

This investigation considers the respective responsibilities of the Caretaker and Club Lead, and whether the exchange demonstrates any improper interference with the running of the Computer Club.

The transcript supplied by Geoff is identified as Exhibit A. It records an exchange involving Geoff, Tony and Martin.

The transcript was prepared by a participant in the disagreement. Its origin in a recording should be distinguished from independent verification of its accuracy. This report proceeds on the account supplied; it does not certify that every word has been checked against the original audio.

Tony’s request for clarification is not treated as a complaint that Martin refused to clean the kitchen. No such refusal appears in the evidence.

3. Summary of events

Geoff asked Martin to remember to clean the kitchen at the end of the meeting. Martin agreed.

Tony then asked Geoff to speak separately and stated that instructions to Computer Club members should pass through him. Geoff maintained that ensuring the kitchen was left clean formed part of his responsibilities as Caretaker.

Tony did not dispute the need for cleaning. He subsequently confirmed that he had intended to arrange it and would probably also have asked Martin to do it.

Martin repeated that he was willing to do the work.

Tony then instructed Martin to clean the kitchen. Martin agreed again. Geoff stated that his original request remained in force, while Tony maintained that Martin would be acting on his instruction.

4. Findings

4.1 There was agreement about the work

All three participants accepted that the kitchen should be cleaned.

The disagreement concerned who was entitled to ask Martin, rather than what Martin should do. By the end of the exchange, the same task had been assigned to the same person twice.

4.2 Tony has a legitimate role in organising club activities

The Club Lead should ordinarily coordinate club business, including the allocation of duties among members.

Geoff should avoid unnecessarily disrupting meetings or making arrangements that conflict with an existing allocation.

However, no conflicting allocation was identified in this exchange. Tony’s proposed arrangement was substantially the same arrangement Geoff had already made.

4.3 Geoff has a legitimate interest in the condition of the premises

A reminder concerning the kitchen falls within the Caretaker’s ordinary responsibilities.

Addressing that reminder directly to a club member does not, by itself, amount to assuming leadership of the Computer Club.

Tony’s position would require Geoff to locate the Club Lead before asking a willing person to wipe a surface. I do not consider that a necessary arrangement.

4.4 Martin’s cooperation did not resolve the disagreement

Martin agreed promptly and expressed no objection to the task.

His willingness was repeatedly set aside while the other participants discussed which of them was entitled to obtain it. This prolonged the exchange without improving the cleaning arrangements.

4.5 Completion is not established

The transcript establishes that Martin agreed to clean the kitchen.

It does not establish that the kitchen was subsequently cleaned. Agreement, allocation and completion should remain separate entries in any record.

5. Determination

My determination is that:

1. Tony may organise Computer Club activities and allocate club duties.
2. Geoff may give reasonable instructions and reminders concerning the use and condition of Chapel premises.
3. Computer Club membership does not require all communication with a member to pass through Tony.
4. Neither role confers general authority over Martin personally.
5. Where instructions genuinely conflict, Geoff and Tony should resolve the conflict directly rather than requiring Martin to decide which office he recognises.

On the evidence supplied, Geoff’s original reminder was reasonable. Tony’s concern about club organisation was understandable, but his claim to be the sole person entitled to issue this particular instruction is not supported.

Geoff’s subsequent insistence that his request remained separately in force was also unnecessary. One satisfactory cleaning would have fulfilled both requests.

6. Recommended action

No disciplinary action is recommended.

Geoff and Tony should be given this clarification. Any continuing disagreement should be referred to the Chair outside the meeting.

Martin should be thanked for agreeing to clean the kitchen. He should not be required to provide a statement identifying whose instruction he ultimately followed.

Glyn Huffmorton
Chair of the Chapel Committee

**Annex: Exhibit A.

Exchange concerning instructions to Computer Club members

==TRANSCRIPT BEGINS==
Geoff: Martin, remember to clean up the kitchen at the end, please.

Martin: Yes, no problem.

Tony: Geoff, can you come through here a minute?

Geoff: What is it?

Tony: If you need a Computer Club member to do something during a meeting, you need to come through me.

Geoff: I asked him to wipe the kitchen down.

Tony: I heard what you asked him. That’s why I’m speaking to you.

Geoff: It is part of my responsibility to make sure the kitchen is left clean.

Tony: And it’s my responsibility to manage the members of the Computer Club. You tell me what needs doing and I allocate it.

Geoff: It has already been allocated. Martin said he would do it.

Tony: Martin shouldn’t have been put in that position.

Geoff: What position?

Tony: Being given an instruction by somebody outside the club while I’m standing here running it.

Geoff: I am the Caretaker of the building you are running it in.

Tony: I’m not disputing that. I’m asking you to respect the structure of the club.

Geoff: Does the structure of the club include cleaning the kitchen?

Tony: Yes.

Geoff: Then I don’t understand the difficulty.

Tony: You wouldn’t go into somebody’s workplace and start telling their staff what to do.

Geoff: This is my workplace, Tony.

Martin: I’m happy to do the kitchen.

Tony: That isn’t the point, Martin.

Geoff: It was the point when I started speaking.

Tony: You’ve now made it look as though I wasn’t going to arrange for it to be cleaned.

Geoff: Were you?

Tony: Yes.

Geoff: Who were you going to ask?

Tony: Probably Martin.

Geoff: Well, I’ve saved you a job.

Tony: No. You’ve undermined me. Martin, when we finish, can you clean the kitchen, please?

Martin: Yes.

Tony: Thank you. That is how it should have been handled.

Geoff: For the avoidance of doubt, my original request remains in force.

Tony: He’s doing it because I’ve asked him.

Martin: Do I need to do it twice?
==TRANSCRIPT ENDS==

1. Purpose of meeting

Glyn opened the meeting to consider Tony Whitlesay’s continued leadership of the Chapel Computer Club following further concerns about his conduct towards members.

Since the incident involving Martin Vale and the kitchen-cleaning instructions, Priya Desainyt and Simon Potts had each spoken to Glyn on several occasions. Their reports had been made separately, but their accounts agreed on three particular matters:

1. Tony was alleged to have dismissed Priya’s suggestion of a session involving digital art and manga as “not proper computing”, before returning the discussion to his own proposed activities.
2. Tony was alleged to have stopped Simon helping another member with a computer problem because the request had not first been referred to him as Club Lead. No objection to the advice itself had been identified.
3. Tony was alleged to have warned that members who continued to question his decisions could have their membership category reviewed.

Priya and Simon had both understood this to mean a possible downgrade. Priya was concerned at losing her A1 status whereas there was no grade lower than Simon's for him to be demoted to.

Glyn said the separate accounts corroborated one another sufficiently for the concerns to require consideration. They were recorded as allegations; Tony had not yet been asked for his response to these particular matters.

Geoff asked whether either person had expressed an interest in taking over the Club.

Glyn said the question of a successor was a separate agenda item.

It was acknowledged that Tony had put considerable work into the Club. The concern was that he had increasingly interpreted responsibility for its organisation as authority over the people attending it.

Stephen said members should be able to participate without feeling that they had entered a subordinate position.

2. Previous investigation and proposed change of leadership

Geoff referred to the Report of Investigation into Authority over Chapel Computer Club Members, concerning his disagreement with Tony after asking Martin Vale to clean the kitchen.

Geoff recalled that Martin had agreed immediately. Tony had nevertheless objected because the request had not passed through him, before issuing substantially the same request himself.

Geoff said this illustrated the difficulty. A willing person had been available to do a necessary job, but Tony had considered the identity of the person asking more important than getting it done.

The meeting noted that no disciplinary action had been recommended at that time. Glyn said the newer reports raised the question of whether the clarification had resulted in any practical change to Tony’s approach.

The allegation concerning Simon’s offer of help was considered particularly relevant, as it again concerned Tony’s insistence that an otherwise acceptable activity required his prior involvement.

Glyn considered that the accounts, taken together with the earlier incident, described an overly imposing and authoritarian approach. Members needed coordination and assistance, rather than a leader whose permission they had to obtain.

It was agreed that Tony should be asked to stand down as Club Lead.

3. Appointment of a successor

Glyn proposed Priya Desainyt, describing her as “forward thrusting” and someone who could take the Club forward.

He considered that she would bring fresh ideas and encourage people who might not currently regard the Computer Club as somewhere for them. Glyn said Priya should not be excluded from consideration merely because she had brought difficulties to his attention.

Stephen welcomed the proposal. He said a broader range of participants would help demonstrate that the Chapel was providing an accessible community facility, which would be useful in the Council’s consideration of its continued community value.

He asked that any increase in participation be recorded, rather than records simply describing a more welcoming atmosphere.

Geoff said he had hoped Simon Potts might be considered. Simon had seemed rather down and underutilised since the Computer Club had been taken off him, and having something useful to do might help.

Glyn said no.

Stephen also said no, citing Simon’s previous unreliability and the outstanding need for him to demonstrate that he could be depended upon.

Geoff suggested that responsibility might encourage reliability.

Glyn said they had previously tried that order of events and it didn't work.

Priya’s appointment was agreed, subject to her acceptance. Stephen asked that the reasons for selecting her be recorded separately from the complaints about Tony.

Geoff asked that his suggestion concerning Simon be recorded too.

4. Informing Tony

Geoff said that, as Chair, Glyn should tell Tony. The decision concerned the leadership of a Chapel club and should therefore be communicated by the person chairing the meeting at which it had been made.

Glyn considered that Geoff’s regular presence at the Chapel made him better placed to arrange a quiet conversation.

Stephen said he had no preference as to who informed Tony, provided it was clear that this was the Committee’s decision.

Geoff suggested that Stephen’s lack of preference left him available to do it.

Stephen clarified that he had no preference between Glyn and Geoff.

Glyn said Geoff was already familiar with the background and would be able to explain the distinction between the earlier kitchen incident and the more recent concerns.

Geoff said the recent concerns had been reported to Glyn.

Glyn offered to provide him with a summary.

Geoff said that was an argument for choosing someone who had not been involved in it.

Glyn considered that bringing in another person would unnecessarily widen the matter. He asked Geoff to read back the actions agreed so far.

Geoff read back that Tony was to be informed of the decision.

Glyn asked him to add his name beside it, for clarity.

Stephen added that any response from Tony should be recorded and referred back to Glyn. Geoff should not attempt to resolve disputed accounts during the conversation.

Action: Geoff to inform Tony that he is to stand down as Club Lead, explain the proposed handover to Priya and refer any response to Glyn.

Geoff requested that the minutes record that he had not volunteered.

5. Close

Glyn thanked those present and said the change should be handled sensitively.

Geoff asked that nobody congratulate Priya publicly until he had spoken to Tony.

==RECORDING BEGINS==

Geoff: This is Geoff Thomas, Caretaker, speaking with Tony Whitlesay regarding the Chapel Computer Club.

Tony: I know who you are. What’s that for?

Geoff: So there is an accurate record of what I tell you and your response.

Tony: You’ve brought a dictaphone to speak to me?

Geoff: I have been given an action by the Committee. I would prefer not to have a disagreement afterwards about whether I carried it out.

Tony: Go on, then.

Geoff: The Committee has considered concerns about your management of the Computer Club and has agreed that you should be asked to stand down as Club Lead.

Tony: Asked?

Geoff: Yes.

Tony: Then no.

Geoff: Tony, I haven’t finished.

Tony: You asked. I answered.

Geoff: I am informing you of the Committee’s decision.

Tony: You said I was being asked.

Geoff: You are being asked to cooperate with the decision.

Tony: Right. So it isn’t a question.

Geoff: There are concerns about how you speak to members, how decisions are made and whether people feel able to contribute.

Tony: Who’s said that?

Geoff: Priya and Simon have both spoken to Glyn.

Tony: Of course they have. Who’s getting my job?

Geoff: Priya has been proposed.

Tony: There we are.

Geoff: That does not mean the concerns are without substance.

Tony: And Simon? Was he hoping for it as well?

Geoff: Simon was considered. He is not being appointed.

Tony: Even you couldn’t get that through, then.

Geoff: I am not discussing the whole meeting with you.

Tony: No. Just the bit where I lose the Club.

Geoff: The Club is not your property.

Tony: I put the work in. I organised things. I brought things in.

Geoff: Nobody is disputing that you have done useful work.

Tony: This is about Martin.

Geoff: The kitchen incident was referred to, yes. There have also been more recent concerns.

Tony: You’ve wanted this since I told you to stop going round me.

Geoff: Glyn’s report established that I was entitled to ask Martin to clean the kitchen.

Tony: And said no disciplinary action would be taken. Now you’ve found some more reasons to get rid of me. I know you don't like me, you called me a snake.

Geoff: What?

Tony: On Neocities. To Ichomancer. I read it.

Geoff: That was a conversation about the website.

Tony: About me.

Geoff: I believed you had encouraged Glyn’s objections to the website changes.

Tony: So you had another grievance as well. That’s reassuring.

Geoff: I should not have used that expression publicly. But I did not make this decision on my own.

Tony: You were in the room.

Geoff: Yes.

Tony: And you’re enjoying telling me.

Geoff: I specifically asked for someone else to do it.

Tony: I bet you did.

Geoff: It is in the minutes.

Tony: Everything’s in your minutes, Geoff. Except whatever you don’t put in them.

[Pause.]

Tony: What happens if I refuse?

Geoff: I report your response to Glyn.

Tony: And then?

Geoff: He will have to decide how the Committee wishes to proceed.

Tony: You don’t actually know.

Geoff: I have not been authorised to provide the consequences for you.

Tony: Suppose I come to the next meeting, sit in my usual place and carry on running it.

Geoff: Priya will have been asked to take over. I would have to tell Glyn that you intended to disregard that arrangement.

Tony: You’d have two people giving instructions.

Geoff: Yes. I cannot see that helping your case.

Tony: I could take my equipment home.

Geoff: Your own equipment is yours. If any Club activity depends on it, we would need to know.

Tony: You’d notice then.

Geoff: I expect we would.

Tony: And I’m not handing over my personal passwords.

Geoff: I am not asking for them. Club records and anything belonging to the Chapel need to be handed over. Personal accounts do not.

Tony: I could keep coming as an ordinary member?

Geoff: This decision concerns the lead role. You have not been expelled.

Tony: So I come in, sit there and ask Priya whether I’m allowed to help somebody.

Geoff: That is one of the arrangements people were objecting to under you.

[Pause.]

Tony: And if I stop coming altogether, you’ll put that I wouldn’t cooperate.

Geoff: I would put what you said. You can tell me what you want recorded.

Tony: I want it recorded that I disagree with the decision and consider your involvement in it personal.

Geoff: I will record that.

Tony: And that nobody asked me about these complaints before deciding who should replace me.

Geoff: I will include that in the response to Glyn.

Tony: You’ll send it to him?

Geoff: Yes.

[Pause.]

Tony: Fine. I’ll stand down.

Geoff: As Club Lead?

Tony: Yes, Geoff. As Club Lead.

Geoff: Thank you. Can we arrange the handover?

Tony: I’ll sort out the Club things. You can have a list.

Geoff: When?

Tony: Tomorrow.

Geoff: Thank you.

Tony: Don’t thank me. You’ve got what you wanted.

Geoff: I have carried out what the Committee asked me to do.

Tony: You’ve got it on your little machine as well. Me saying it.

Geoff: Yes.

Tony: Then make sure you keep it. I’ll want the complete recording when I write to Glyn.

Geoff: I will keep it.

[Chair moves. Footsteps.]

Geoff: Tony, the list tomorrow—

Tony: I said tomorrow.

[Door opens and closes.]

Geoff: Tony has agreed to stand down. Handover list promised for tomorrow. He has asked for his objections to be referred to Glyn.

==RECORDING ENDS==